This thread is for the purpose of discussing CarneVaca's motion to suspend all forum rules indefinitely. Discussion will last a minimum of two weeks, unless one or more requests are made to have it extended beyond that time.
Acoustic Guitar Talk |
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Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinitely
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 Ethel the Monkey |
Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinitely |
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Posts: 6105 (10/22/06 10:39 PM) ezOP |
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Strick |
Re: Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinite | ||
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Posts: 115 (10/22/06 10:44 PM) |
No. Not for one second.
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CarneVaca |
Re: Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinite | ||
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Posts: 5144 (10/22/06 10:48 PM) |
The issue is simple: I feel the viability of this forum is under threat. The current administration is ruling with an iron fist and it will inevitably lead to more people abandoning this forum because they can't stand what is going on here, only this time rather than leaving because they want more governance, they will leave because of too much governance.
Deletion of threads and posts by Ethel and Heidi, a practice that seems to be running rampant, is a bad idea. It turns this place into a fascist state, and it is totally against the spirit of this forum. I believe you have the right to edit your own comments if you wish, but I don't believe Ethel or Heidi have the right to edit or remove the comments of others. I also don't believe that if you start a thread and then regret starting it that you should have the right to have the whole thread removed. Go back and edit your comment, for it is your prerogative, but deleting a thread after others have already started to participate is insidious and against all accepted standards of free speech or free exchange of ideas. I vote the rules allowing for thread and comment deletions be suspended indefinitely. |
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CarneVaca |
Re: Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinite | ||
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Posts: 5144 (10/22/06 10:58 PM) |
By the by, I thought it apropos to post the original wording of my motion, so everyone is clear on what I am proposing:
Whereas the current administration of this board seems bent on taking it in a direction diametrically opposed to the spirit in which it was created and has flourished; and whereas the current administration is going down the wrong path by insisting it has the right to delete and lock threads and delete individuals' posts; and whereas those deletions and lockdowns are likely to be based on personal biases rather than generally accepted standards; and whereas deletions are bound to conform with the beliefs by some of what constitutes "offense" and fail to conform with the beliefs of same by others; and whereas the current moderator seems incapable of discerning personal insults from general charcterizations of actions; and whereas this inability has, and will continue to, create animosity and frustration in this board; and whereas this inability further appears certain to chase out certain members of this forum; and whereas the departure of any members from this community shall constitute a loss we can't afford; and whereas said likely departures are sure to lead to the demise of this forum as a place that welcomes free exchange of ideas regardless of personal biases, be it resolved that all rules and regulations recently implemented to govern the presentation of viewpoints on this forum be suspended indefinitely; and be it further resolved that said rules and regulations were implemented in haste and in reaction to certain events that lead to the belief by a minority of the membership that stricter governance was necessary. |
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robjh22 |
Re: Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinite | ||
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Posts: 6514 (10/22/06 10:59 PM) |
I agree with everything Carne says except for the iron fist. It's not exactly that. It's more like a suffocating blanket.
You don't like a post? Ignore it. You don't like your own post? Delete it. You don't like my posts? Bite me. Not there. It's just a figure of speech, you nitwit. if this is a duplicate post, it was unintentional; I just figured out how to delete the custom signature. HD-35
OM-35 |
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CarneVaca |
Re: Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinite | ||
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Posts: 5144 (10/22/06 11:20 PM) |
Rob, in light of the deletion of the six-page thread that started all this, do you still think the "iron fist" characterization was inappropriate?
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headache |
Re: Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinite | ||
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Posts: 3485 (10/22/06 11:21 PM) |
We have a set of rules, voted upon by the majority of the active posters. Though my votes were overruled by others on 90% of the issues, I still support the final vote mandate and intend to stick to it regardless of how I feel about it.
If you suspend so much as one article adjective-an "a", or an "and", or a "the", you will have given in to the darkest enemy of the democratic process. As I see it, by standing your ground, we are going to lose one poster, namely carne, provided he lives up to his threat to leave. I say, "best wishes, carne". I haven't the slightest idea why you are here now. There is nothing about this place that interests you except what drew you here in the first place-that is, a group of people ripe for your game-playing. You contribute nothing of value except discord, and it only has value to you. You love it when the place is in upheaval. You thrive in the midst of incivility and insolence, and promote same at every opportunity. This motion of yours is further proof of those traits. This is a time when we should be standing shoulder to shoulder against a phalanx of intruders hell-bent on finishing off their destruction of this place. It is a really lousy time to attack the one thing we have all agreed upon as a group, our rules, which are our first product of group effort towards a common goal. A lousy time unless it is in your interest, your true interests, to attack at our heart while we are engaged in defending our pride and joy from outside carnivores. We need strict rules right now, and we need to enforce those rules to the hilt. Maybe down the road, after we have set right this ship, we can reassess our rules and regulations, and gradually lift the sanctions and restrictions, as soon as we prove ourselves capable of assuming the responsibility of acting like normal citizens, but not until that time. We made these rules for ourselves, primarily, because we acknowledge that we have some problems with our own self-management, and until we learn to live appropriately, and prove by our actions that we can, we must live by what we have chosen, by democratic vote-to legislate ourselves by group convention. Please just go. Find a place that likes your act. You do not work well within a team framework. You have too much ego-driven arrogance and obstinance to exist in a purely democratic process, it seems to me. Your insubordination towards the forum administration is inexcusable, and shows you have never had the experience of working under the constraints of leadership which does not suit your esoteric philosophy of life. Such would be a trait of a truely well-adjusted human being. I vote absolutely NO to suspending any rule or any part of any rule which we have agreed upon through the voting process. Written in bold so the boy king can read it without his glasses. h. |
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oldgeez |
Re: Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinite | ||
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Posts: 585 (10/23/06 12:02 AM) |
I am new here. I understand there has been recent bad blood and some sort of division on this forum before I joined.Perhaps it is not my place to speak on this subject, but I feel it nescessary to do so at this point. I like this forum. It took me a while to warm up to it because it was so different from any other place I'd been on the 'net. I mean no insult to anyone, but here are my feelings FWIW.
Quote: These rights were granted them through the democratic process of a vote. As per said vote, they HAVE that right. Quote: Not so. There were several days of discussion about whether a vote on rules governing this forum were nescessary, followed by a vote on whether or not to vote on rules and regs., followed by a vote held open for several days to try and ensure everyone's voice was heard. I am new here and have no axe to grind with anyone. The process was fair and the moderators bent over backwards to ensure it was fair.They should be commended, not attacked in open forum, and some of you folks that have been here a while and saw all of this should be defending them. I shouldn't have to. I have been here a short time, but I would guess at least 6 weeks or more, and have never heard of the person who is making all the fuss.If they or anyone else did not vote it is their own fault. The mods begged everyone to participate . If you did not you have only yourself to blame. The excuse that you have a busy life doesn't cut it, as no one should be expected to hold a vote open for nearly a month so someone could vote, nor is it possible to work around everyone's schedule when it comes to implementing forum business. If you are so invested in this forum, poke your head in once a week at least and see what's going on. You can't expect the world to stop until you get back to it.If you at minimum had done that you could have stated your case before the vote was taken. More to the point, you could have VOTED.From what I can see, very few people wanted to take the time out to vote, but now everyone's screaming bloody murder. Moderators, this is a test of your ability to do your job. If you knuckle under to this totally assanine situation this will happen again and again, and this forum will degenerate into a very small cliche of people who have their own narrow views and those who scream the loudest will prevail regardless of whether their opinions are true or fair. I understand I have just opened myself up to attack from every corner(probably slit my own throat), but it is my view that this person knows this is a test of your ability to moderate and is taking great delight in pushing you around and making you jump through hoops. Sometimes the persons in authority cannot be a friend to everyone. You must do your jobs. If this forum is worthy, it will survive. If not, better to find out now before you waste any more time, effort, or emotional investment. Sincerely and respectfully yours, I vote ABSOLUTELY NO SUSPENSION OF THE RULES. mIKE |
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headache |
Re: Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinite | ||
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Posts: 3485 (10/23/06 12:09 AM) |
Mike,
Well said, and from the heart with a very succinct and straightforward approach. I commend you and welcome you to this place with my best smile and extended hand. I don't say this merely because you echo my sentiments, but because you have the manner and decorum to civily present your case with aplomb and graciousness, and more than a modicom of self-effacing demeanor. I wish I could be more like that. Thank you for coming here. You, and others like you, are what will make this forum not only thrive again, but in a way far superior to what was once here. Welcome. Ron (headache) |
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oldgeez |
Re: Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinite | ||
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Posts: 585 (10/23/06 12:20 AM) |
Thank you, Ron. I appreciate the support before all the fur flies
 .Mike |
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David Hanners |
Re: Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinite | ||
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Posts: 1156 (10/23/06 09:57 AM) |
I was going to reply to something said on that other thread, but found it had been deleted. Given that we're all (supposedly) adults here, there is something downright Orwellian about deleting a thread.
I say we do away with all the rules, and if someone causes a problem, then we vote on whether to make them the subject of a Klingon discommendation ceremony. Rest assured, the Klingons would have no troubles dealing with things like this.... |
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Fretdweller |
Re: Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinite | ||
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Posts: 1456 (10/23/06 10:26 AM) Moderator |
David it`s not deleted at all. It is right here. It was suspended but due to demand it was bought back. It was right there when you posted your reply.
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Fretdweller |
Re: Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinite | ||
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Posts: 1456 (10/23/06 11:13 AM) Moderator |
Ethel, Heidi,
Do not falter on the rules..They are in place because of votes. Sure think before you guys delete or suspend..act responsibly and respectfully but do not falter. If you bend you will have no respect and everything will be lost. I don`t agree with all the rules but they were voted and I can live with it. We can ammend the rules and we should have that right and some need to be but to dump all of them would only make your job and the original voting process a sham. You`ll paint yourself into a corner if you give in now. All I ask is that you be careful what you delete (always think about all the people in the thread)and be weary that you will offend someone with any move you make..especially if entire threads disappear. |
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David Hanners |
Re: Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinite | ||
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Posts: 1156 (10/23/06 11:26 AM) |
Then I stand corrected, Fretdweller, and thanks for the heads-up. It is still Orwellian, though.
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d28andm1911a1 |
Re: Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinite | ||
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Posts: 11631 (10/23/06 12:46 PM) |
Carne hip hip huray ya old enemy.
Home of:
'76 d28 '03 00-15 and others |
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Ethel the Monkey |
Re: Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinite | ||
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Posts: 6105 (10/23/06 01:15 PM) ezOP |
No worries, Fretdweller. We will work out the kinks in the rules and guidlines and smooth off the rough edges, but during this process the rules stand as voted on.
Heidi has my full support for any decision she makes. It will not be necessary to delete any threads. Deletion of posts will follow the rules and guidelines. Post limit restrictions will also be administered according to the rules and guidelines. |
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heid2 |
Re: Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinite | ||
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Posts: 10167 (10/23/06 01:22 PM) Moderator |
I also now have the compacity to lock threads,(Mr Fred) so that should help.
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Paul Kucharski |
Re: Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinite | ||
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Posts: 1148 (10/23/06 03:27 PM) Standard |
Damned if you do have rules and damned if you don't. Since the rules were voted on by everyone, I think they should stay and be enforced. No rules is what destroyed the old forum, so it can't get any worse by enforcing the new ones, and in all liklihood will act to stem the bad behavior so the forum can grow back again.
...kids can cry when they get slapped, but they're less likely to do it again once they know where the boundaries are. We are still in the process of setting up the boundaries....like Bush would say....nobody said it would be easy...this is tough work! |
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robjh22 |
Re: Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinite | ||
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Posts: 6514 (10/23/06 07:29 PM) |
Quote: Paul, I disagree on three bases, though I am unsure that you personally made all three arguments i disagree with: First, which old forum was "destroyed"? This one? I don't really consider it destroyed by the fact that many left and formed a private klub to which the Irish need not apply. Your thesis is, with all due respect, disrespectful to us lepers who stayed, and especially to Ethel who apparently has come up with a lovely new wallpaper or whatever you call the new look. Note too that Ethel has not used her position, which she did not have to assume, to advance any political position. I admire that in you Ethel, though our politics are 180 degrees apart. Second, it was not the "no rules" that destroyed anything. To the extent that anything was destroyed, it was due to a group of like-minded friends huddling secretly in the corner who decided to start a new forum because they found several forumites, principally Arch and Ethel, unfit for polite society. I suppose they would argue, as I guess you do now, that the old forum needed rules to deal with the likes of Arch and Ethel, but this is circular: I was as nauseated by some of the deserters as they were by Arch. And I don't mean nauseated by the fact of their desertion, though their overt housing discrimination against Headache, Heidi, Lush and the monkeys, and their less over disapproval of at least two other good friends of mine here, was nauseating as well. But you didn't see me or Arch huddling in a corner and whispering about moving to an undisclosed location and keeping quiet so as to ostracize them, did you? If we had done so and left the Soundhole group here, all snug and happy with outr departure, would you say that "lack of rules destroyed the forum"? Third, I disagree that rules can't be reconsidered, especially if they are reconsidered democratically, assuming that is hwat some argue above. What if it was democratically decided that I become discussion czar with power to delete posts and threads willy nilly. It would be a great idea on the merits because I am so wise and smart, but surely Headache or Carne should be empowered to raise their hand and suggest an amendment. I would order their immediate arrest, of course, but that's not really the point. All that said, the only rule I personally disagree with is that which empowers moderators to delete entire threads without the consent of every poster. I also object to deletion of a post without the poster's consent unless it advocates violence or seeks to defraud. But that's just me. Like Headache, I agree that rules are rules, and if I don't like them, I am free to move on. And that's all I got to say about dat. |
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heid2 |
Re: Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinite | ||
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Posts: 10167 (10/23/06 07:40 PM) Moderator |
The one thing I do have to say Paul, is that I am REALLY, REALLY grateful that you were kind enough to give us this forum instead of leaving us out in the cold and shutting it down.
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robjh22 |
Re: Discussion on the Motion to Suspend all Rules Indefinite | ||
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Posts: 6514 (10/23/06 08:11 PM) |
Well, I'll sure as hell second that. If it weren't for Paul, we wouldn't even know each other or be all pissed off at each other. And so I appreci... I ...
Wait ... there is a pain between my ears. Just kidding, Paul. I love you. In a real macho, man-law way. Nothing funny. Not from my end anyway. Well, not my "end," I shouldn't say that. HD-35
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